Trying to Have a Discussion With a Violent Person, or Was I Merely Trying to Shout Them Down?

I had a most extraordinary experience on facebook today. My own fault. It was none of my business as I intruded on someone else's post after seeing a mutual friend comment on it. The original post:

Dr. Best & I were just discussing the SAW movies and how all the gratuitous violence is nicely contextualized as exacting revenge on a party that would otherwise go through life unscathed. We think it would be way cool if the subject of the next SAW movie was a vivisector, furrier, or trapper who was kept alive just to endure unspeakable torture. And what a wonderful vehicle this would be to bring Animal Liberation to the masses...

I was kind of shocked at the violence indicated and responded in passion...

Violence is not something that should be glorified in any context. Violence is repulsive pornographic evil. Torturing a human or an animal, or even "depicting" it is an abomination. Never saw SAW, but it must be warped sickness on film. Snap out of it!

Thinking more about my own motivation and behavior, I followed up with an apology...

I apologize for my earlier rant. It was a form of verbal violence and I regret it. Passion and an acid pen do not always mix, and it is important to step into the shoes of those with whom we disagree and walk around a bit before we judge. God bless...

And my considered opinion...

I believe humans differ from animals, in part due to our awareness. To consider humans merely animals is to limit acknowledgment of our existence to merely being biological creatures, disregarding the mind altogether. As stewards of the earth, we have a responsibility to treat animals with respect and conserve their lives, but they are here for us, not the other way round. As a contrast, I do not see any possibility of animals, carnivores in particular, having any such discernment. Some of the posters here seem to look at the worst of mankind's behavior and really do not cut themselves, or their neighbors, any slack. Vengeance is a losing game, and I guess I can merely say that I am glad you are not in charge.

And received this in return...

I have not seen such a civil and eloquent statement of human hubris and speciesist arrogance in quite some time. Animals do have a mind not unlike our almighty species, irrespective of your inability to acknowledge such or simply de...sire not to do so. They have their own morality, social systems, they experience empathy, fear, and grief. From the beginning they have resisted oppression at our hands, although in our astounding ignorance, we routinely identify an elephant who has escaped from the circus, a dolphin that kills his captor, or a tiger kills an intruder as rogues... as dumb violent beasts.

Your polite words are nothing more than a justification and rationalization for the subjugation and domination of every nonhuman species on the planet. We are not their custodians -- we have insinuated ourselves into their existence... and as long as your attitude is the prevalent one, I advocate zero population growth and the voluntary extinction of our vile species

And yet I persisted …

Were I to mirror your attitude in defense of my own beliefs, I might suggest, "you first." As things stand, I will say I would defend your right to express yourself, as I believe that you do not actually advocate the murder of individual humans. It may be that you rue our bad choices, and wish that we did not have to make any choices, especially vis a vis animals. Am I close?

Not very charitable, I admit. My antagonist, for now she clearly was, responded...

Peter, by all means, please do suggest "you first." I preach nothing that I do not practice. I am an adherent of voluntary human extinction (i.e., vhemt).

Now let's talk about you. I think that maybe you enjoy the privilege and comfort afforded you as a human and, therefore, it is essential to for you to relegate all other species to objects of lesser value to justify your elitist worldview. Isn't this the same thing white slaveowners did in the antebellum south to allow them to enjoy the objectification and exploitation of African-American slaves? And isn't the rendering of Jews to a less-than-human social status the same mechanism that allowed Nazi Germany to relegate them to concentration camps and gas chambers?

So as you have arbitrarily decided that people deserve some moral consideration from which you have excluded animals, how is your position any different than that of a polite slaveowner or an eloquent Nazi?

And, as far as advocating murder, I am no fool. But I'm sure we can agree that a dead abuser cannot hurt animals.

I could not resist one more salvo...

I am so sorry you have such hate in your head, and will pray that whatever ails you presently will leave you alone so maybe you can actually accomplish something in pursuit of your positions. What you propose is blind to humility, ...humanity, and consideration for anyone including your animals. It appears you would be god. I will read whatever you post next, having no desire to claim the last word of our "discussion," but after that I am about done with this conversation. I wish you the best life can offer, and peace.

And my participation ended on this note, as promised …

funny, it seems you have no desire to defend your hubris, only to criticize our consistency in wanting to eliminate oppressors. good day

Post script

Moral? I suppose it is not to argue on the internet (I am SO bad at observing that!), and that the passion of others can not be fathomed, at least without some face to face discussion, where our humanity is much more evident than it is across the ether (they call it “the cloud” now). In this case, though, I wonder ...

My United States of America - 1956

I am an American, born in Michigan in 1956. I was the third of four sons born to a woman from Salt Lake City Utah and a man from Lewisburg Pennsylvania who met in Lewisburg. They were married in 1951 and remained so until her death in 1985, at age 55.

Other things that happened in 1956: Ike was re-elected President, defeating Adlai Stevenson fthe second time, 96 Congressmen (almost all southern Democrats) signed the Declaration of Constitutional Principles, also known as the Southern Manifesto, to counter the recent Supreme Court decision in Brown v. Board of Education, the United Methodist Church called for an end to congregational racial segregation.

Videotape was introduced in broadcasting, Reynold Johnson invented the hard disk drive for IBM, and China saw the rise of the asian flu.

The Soviet Army crushed rebellions in Georgia (SSR) and Hungary and labor unrest in Poland, Pakistan became the first announced Islamic Republic and Gamal Abdel Nasser became President of Egypt..

Mickey Mantle won the American League triple crown and Don Larsen pitched a perfect game in the World Series, Elvis had his first hit on the US pop charts with Heartbreak Hotel and appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show,  Norma Jean Mortenson officially changed her name to Marilyn Monroe and married playwright Arthur Miller, Mel Gibson, Steve Ballmer, Dan Patrick and Geena Davis were born, and Tommy Dorsey and Babe Didrikson Zaharias died. (1)



(1) Wikipedia

Dream of Life and Dreams of Death

In the morning of April 1, 2012, I awoke about 2:30 from a dream that seems profound. I've had other dreams that seem similar, but this one was significantly different to warrant comment. Please note: This is NOT an April Fool's joke.

I was in my garage, which, contrary to its state in waking reality, was clear of equipment and clutter and bathed in a bright light. I strove with some frustration to correctly park a riding mower, trying minute adjustments and coming up just wrong for several attempts. As I worked, a large black SUV appeared in front of the open doors of the garage. It looked like a Hummer but was about three times their biggest size, and its headlamps projected a sort of darkness into the brightness of the garage. I got off the mower to investigate, when a man shape appeared around the corner of the house and came into the garage.

The man, if so it was, was garbed all in black, with a robe at least calf length, and its face was either masked and cowled or invisible due to the darkness of the vehicle's headlamps behind. Cautiously approaching one another, it suddenly turned to me revealing only the lower face, and it was hideous. All I could see clearly was the lower jaw, which looked like a skull without cover of skin or whiskers, leering menacingly at me. We circled cautiously until at one moment the being lashed out at me with what from its arm's motion I took to be either a flexible rod or a whip.

Repeatedly it struck at me, but surprisingly I felt nothing, not even a whiff of a breeze indicating passage of the weapon (for weapon it surely was). Still, I became frightened, and in our continued circling dance I sought a weapon with which to defend myself or attack my adversary, at last reaching for a device on the wall I will describe: Two handles separated by a double spring perhaps 30 inches long, used by me in times past for isometric exercise where by pulling apart, one's arms and chest are strengthened.

I wielded this weapon against my unwelcome and belligerent visitor, but with no more result than he had with his supposed whip. After several attempts at damaging my foe, I realized the futility of my efforts and lowered my guard, standing passively while he continued to strike at me for a moment. Then, as I watched, he slowly became less visible and corporeal and eventually faded back.

Above this point I merely describe the dream as I remember it. Below I venture into interpretation.

At this moment I awoke and began to ponder the dream. I have occasionally had dreams of being attacked, and in some cases saw my death from gunshot or snake bite or stabbing before waking in a sweat of anxiety. This time upon awakening my anxiety was less and I was able to recall the whole dream where before I was in such a state of agitation to be unable to recall the dream clearly or remember much besides the fact of my demise.

In my recollection of the dream this morning, I felt less outmatched and fearful than usual, saw my foe more clearly, and was able to piece together the sequence of events coherently as never before. It seems that spiritual forces had arrayed themselves against me and invaded my home, in the form of my “man cave,” as so many men consider their garage or workshop. The garage was more clear of “stuff” than it is in reality, and the task to which I attended was of minor importance but of increasing frustration for me. I recalled even later the brightness of the space, as though arc lamps filled every corner of the garage, whereas in reality I have but a few fluorescent bars arrayed here and there on the ceiling.

I noticed the darkness of the headlamps of the vehicle that appeared, at least in comparison with the light in which I worked. The headlamps seemed to suck the light from the space, but could not induce darkness in any corner of the room. It was a large vehicle, truly oversized but of a shape familiar in Hendersonville, that of a huge Hummer or Range Rover.

The visitor who attacked me was man-size, not imposing but of average height and build, clothed or draped in black, whose face was unseen behind mask, hood, or plain darkness. I can not tell what weapon he wielded, but described it as best I could from conjecture. My own weapon was merely the first thing I saw that seemed to have a chance of holding off this apparition, found hanging on my wall among many small tools of various utility. I struck at him with force three or four times before I realized the thing was useless against him.

It is difficult to understand my decision to become passive, as in previous dreams where I was attacked I had always tried to fight tooth and nail against inevitable death, to the very point of my demise. And this time the attacker did not triumph, but faded from my sight almost before I awoke.

My interpretation follows and seems right to me, although I would listen to any other that comes to the mind of the reader.

In all my dreams of this nature, as I busy myself with the minutiae of life, spiritual forces attack me intent on slaying me for whatever reason – perhaps that I am available for death or in the way somehow. In all such dreams prior to this, I am overwhelmed by these forces due to my own sin and determination to protect myself physically, and die forlorn and with resignation that there was no power capable of redeeming me. Since I looked merely to my own power and redemption, I was a dead duck.

This time, for the first time, I did not feel my attacker's whip or bar, and although I attempted to fight back as on all other occasions, I quickly realized that I was not being harmed, dropped my own useless physical weapon, and passively confronted my adversary, who, lo and behold, dissolved before my eyes in his own ineffectiveness! The garage never darkened, I was never wounded, and though I was unable myself to drive off the attacker, he was, nevertheless, driven off.

I think that by spiritual forces not of mine, I was redeemed and the adversary driven away. There is but one source of such spiritual power, and though I need not name Him, I do so because of the sweetness of the Name and appreciation of what He has done for me, conquering that enemy that I though trying throughout my adult life could not drive off myself, and suffered many defeats instead. Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords, Prince of Peace, King of creation is His name. I am not ashamed of Him.

What is it that brings the boss of the universe to my succor, me being although repentant, still a sinner without a full heart for my fellow men or even a thorough understanding of my Savior? The answer is Grace, the answer being known to all who seek Him through whom the physical world came to be for us to inhabit. Grace of Christ, who in my dream has shown me that He truly forgives me and desires that I live and not die. Praise Him with great praise!

My opponent(s) in all these dreams must be an imp of satan, bent on my eventual and eternal destruction. By such manipulation within dreams, the imp teaches me to despair and to go down fighting, as though I could redeem myself through my own efforts. By strife and desperation we are vulnerable to to its strategy of death for all of mankind, but by Christ, in whom all things are possible and only goodness exists, we become impregnable to such machination and lies.

I think the garage signifies my life, with all its pointless minutiae and frustrations. The garge being clean and clear of clutter represents my thinking in Him – the ability to focus on Christ allows me to clear out the debris of my past sin and allows the light to enter. Never in previous dreams, where I found defeat and death, was my space so clear and so bright that darkness could not penetrate it.